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"Magic" Not Really Magic?

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Forum Name: Witchcraft/Wicca forum
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URL: http://www.neo-forum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11075
Printed Date: December/03/2021 at 11:21am


Topic: "Magic" Not Really Magic?
Posted By: cd27
Subject: "Magic" Not Really Magic?
Date Posted: February/05/2007 at 6:22am
hey guys, been a long time. Anyways, i just wanted to post something that's really come to my attention here. I've been studying for quite a while about this thing called 'psi', which is the same thing as psychic,except without the religious and other kind of stuff mixed in with it.

I am a devoted Christian, and i don't really believe in witchcraft and wicca, but i won't close my eyes to it, it's a real thing and it's out there.

one thing i've noticed, purely as a scientist, is that magic in itself does not exist. 'magic' implies the use of a power beyond our personal control, something we can 'tap into'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28paranormal%29

Hence we are basically saying to ourselves that, magic is the use of someone/something else's powers, right? Either way, WRONG. 'Magic' doesn't exist. What we call magic is simply a much greater understanding of the universe around us.

To a dog, when you use a phone, or when you put a walky talky in front of it and then move back a few dozen feet and talk through it, i'm quite sure that it thinks that's magic, but to us, it's just a much better understanding of the universe around us.

So, if magic is really a better understanding of the universe around us, who is understanding this? as i said before, witchcraft and wicca rely on the powers/knowledge of other 'gods' and beings, who then grant them the power. The power is essentially 'not your own', but you tap into the power of another being or diety, as i know works with Wicca b/c at one time i was one, and am now NOT one, for explicit perposes.

In my own personal oppinion, i've experienced enough with this stuff, wicca, to know that, remember, just my oppinion, there are two sides, good and evil, and the good is God, and the bad is...well, i think you can figure that out.

Anyways, if you really want to do 'real magic', try studying psionics, try studying some of my material about science. Don't rely on a religious gester to 'tap your power from', because ultimately, it's not your power and you would have ABSOLUTELY NO control over it AT ALL. This 'bieng' could get mad at you, or can disown you for any reason at all, and you'll be stuck there, because you didn't rely on your own ability to understand and search to know for yourself and instead trusted in a 'being' that is out simply to trick you to follow it and then turn on you.

Wicca relies on the 'personal gain' idea, where if you do something for yourself or to harm someone, or do anything bad, you'll get it back three fold.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^



Replies:
Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/05/2007 at 4:56pm
Well cd, that's just the thing. Just like you pray to your god for certain things to happen and be granted. You also tap into his power whilst doing so.

I have powers and I have strong abilities thanks to my gifts, but the powers I have only equal to so much in the long run. For me, the powers of the gods are not completely essential to my well being. This is because I live under a different set of rules than the average human being.

I have tapped into the powers of the gods as did I tap into the powers of your god (I too was a devoted Christian untill my research proved Christianity to be highly populist)through prayer and ritual. Maybe not attending a pagan church every Sunday, but giving the gods praise any way I can. Whether it be through meditation, or forming my own coven and hosting meetings that will help aid spiritual development.

The powers of the gods (including your god) is an uncontrollable factor to us who live in this world and most who live on the other side. This uncontrollability matches that of life. So in order to keep up with the ever changing world, we must depend on the powers of the gods more than our own to keep us able to adapt to sudden negative changes in our life that we can do nothing about. At least, that's my opinion.

I am not all an all-knowing being. I may or may not be wrong about what I just said. If I am I have no problem accepting my own mistake.

You see things scientifically cd, while most pagans see things spiritually. This is a place where not even plain logic can come into effect. We all do things that no one else understands. Like how some people need to eat their grits with ketchup or honey. No one really gets it but you. My thing is that as long as I like the taste of my grits with ketchup or honey than I could care less what everyone else thinks. Then again that's just me.

I hope that this explanation proved some-what legible. lolz. Well, I'll talk to you later. Keep in touch. And I'd be happy to elaborate for anyone who has no idea what I'm talking about lolz.

Latez

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/07/2007 at 5:48am
I have written a response to this post earlier today, but i lost my flash drive, so i'll have to wait a few days to post it. sry.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/08/2007 at 9:53am
Lolz, ok, take your time.

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/09/2007 at 6:34am
Prophet,

     Thank you so much for your response and for being so open minded about the subject (itís not every day that I meet someone who is willing to openly express what they believe without either getting offended at the other person or just being so stubborn that there is no longer a point in the conversation). I too, at one time, was not a Christian. I used to hate it when I saw something come in the mail from a church and kept saying, ďWhy canít these stupid people leave me alone?Ē Of course, now I understand why they do it, but at the time it had not came to me.
     My reason for believing in God is because ĎIí came to an end, was about to commit suicide, and thatís the ONLY light I saw in the world. I donít mean this to say that everything else is wrong or right, and I didnít have a scientific mind at the time, but I was looking for a last hope even though I had given up (I guess we all are at times). When you have nothing to lean on, when you have no Ďrestrictionsí to one thing or the other, it is very simple to look at everything individually objectively, and the only people who reached, and the only time I could honestly say God seemed real to me, was when I walked into that church. Of course, I didnít catch immediately, I was still optimistic about it and was reluctant to even walk in to begin with.
     But now that I look back at my life, it is picture perfect, there are just WAY too many things that have happened in my life (from past to present) that just couldnít be coincidental, that just couldnít have happened to me on accident. I mean, each and every event in my life was like a puzzle piece leading up to a whole picture, and at the time, when I was still but pieces, I could not understand it or make sense of it, but now, years later, (today, Feb. 5th, is my five year Ďspiritual birthdayí from the moment I was saved) I can see it clearly and see events happening in my life simply to lead me to one place or another, so that I would meet a certain person, or have something happen to me, so that it would mean something to me later on.
     There has always been one thing about me though, that I donít take anything for truth until I do extensive research on it. I have three shoeboxes FULL (actually overflowing) with research papers and articles and all kinds of stuff. Thatís only been the past four years too. I didnít go Wiccan until about 1/3 the way through my faith in Christ, because I was beginning to have doubts and had not really understood Christianity. But by seeing what I have seen, by experiencing the things I have experienced, and the research and contacts I have had with other Wiccan people, I found serious problems (which I will not mention here because I donít want to start a riot). I wonít judge you, and I wonít tell you that youíre an evil person or that youíre going to hell because youíre a Wiccan, I know what boat youíre in all too well, and I know a lot about Wicca, not so much witchcraft. The same thing did I with Christianity, I studied it, researched it, and tried to make sense of it. Iím only recently beginning to understand what it REALLY means to be a Christian and found that I had a totally WRONG view of ChristianityÖone that many people today have.
     Iíve written an article on this if you would like to view it, maybe to get a better perspective on what Christianity really is all about. Iím not saying Iím Master Yoda and Iím all cool and everything and really knowledgeable about the Bible and God, Iím not perfect and donít claim to be, but I know enough to know Iím on the right track. I canít seem to find the actual article on my computer, but I can find the outline for it, which Iíll give you a link to for your own further study.

I really, however, would not like to discuss all of this here because of the fact that I donít want a major debate thatís going to get off topic. This really isnít about religion, itís about whether or not magic is Ďmagicí or is a deeper understanding of the universe around us. I would very much like to continue speaking with you via private message or by email (s20833@psdschools.org). You seem very open minded and I respect that. A lot of people have looked to me and my statements and said that I am very closed minded, but thatís not the fact. I stick by my beliefs and donít waver because I am grounded in my faith, but I do listen to every word you have to say, and I honestly compare it, look at it from a very open-minded view (one of my gifts is the ability to change mindsets immediately, unlike most people who have to do something or be somewhere to change their mindsets like that, I can change my method of thinking entirely instantly).
I write a lot, and thatís what Iíve done for the past five years, is just write. Iíve written several unpublished science fiction novels; a novel for Christians or those who donít really understand what being a Christian is about, and several dozens of articles and letters. I have written my own theory spanning seventy pages typed (306 if I include ALL of my scientific ideas and donít limit it to purely the theory itself), which is on the verge of being tested. I plan to break the laws of physics, or at least attempt to (which has been under crucial strain under the fire of arrogant scientists who donít believe that the laws of physics which man wrote down could ever be overturned by man). Iíll listen to whatever you have to say, and will read anything you give me, but just know that you can always expect an in-depth response from me. I can understand practically anything you can give me, and I will help you understand it better as compared to my understanding of it, as I said, I do massive research on things all the time.

Well, Prophet, itís about 12:00 A.M. where I am now, so Iím gonna shoot off to bed. Have a great day and I hope to hear from you again sometimes soon.

CD


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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/10/2007 at 12:29pm
I see... and I can understand exactly where you come from. In my past years of Christianity I began to find it highly populist (for the most part) and against almost any other types of thinking. It sickened me to such an extent because I began to prove these ideas to be truth. You hear many different things during a pastor's sermons. To ears that are welcoming to his/her's speech will find it very informative and very uplifting. To those who do not share a christian faith or have a strong disliking/misunderstanding of the religion, you will find ignorance and malice. To those who seek to find the truth behind the barrier, it is they who will see the truth of the pastor's visions and will see their full intentions.

Many pastors have to go through training to become who they become. It is my belief that through this training and trials, they are tested to see how effective their sermons are to reach all three pairs of ears. This is what makes a sermon spectacular.

I myself share the ears of all three. What human doesn't. I can understand how you would see some of the pagan ways as wrong or demeaning because it was how you were raised to think and how you developed your thought process. I will not hold you accountable for you have done nothing wrong.

My main reason for being what I am today is because I'm sick of seeing things from one side of the spectrum. I want to see the whole spectrum and not just one side of it. This way I will have a balanced understanding of the world and it's people. This is my dream.

I do wish to discuss this with you further for I wish to see the side of Christianity that exists as it is supposed to. You may e-mail me at ad_16_2006@yahoo.com.

Hope to hear from you.

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/12/2007 at 8:05am
Prophet,

     I understand your views, and understand them well. I too was sickened and still am at times to see people who claim to be Christians and do not act like Christians, or are completely closed minded and therefore ignorantly arrogant. Thatís something I simply will not tolerate and cannot stand, is someone who is closed minded and even contradicting oneself with every spoken word. For example, my grandfather and I are always debating what some parts of the Bible are saying and what they mean and since he has this very old view of how respect goes (you know, Iím 60-something years old and anything I say is right), well, I donít take that crap, and I donít sit back and listen to it. He says itís disrespectful, I say itís speaking the truth and if he doesnít want to hear it, then heís just an arrogant closed minded fool.

     I do not tolerate closed minded people, and often simply stop the conversation before it can turn into an argument. I try to help them understand my point of view, which is rather open minded, but if they refuse to listen, then I simply stop the conversation, and my Grandfather and I have several unfinished conversations. I see that you are open minded and I would very much like to help you understand more of what Christianity is. Your statement you made earlier, let me quote:

Originally posted by ďProphetĒ ďProphetĒ wrote:

I can understand how you would see some of the pagan ways as wrong or demeaning because it was how you were raised to think and how you developed your thought process.


I have a fault with that statement, and this is why. I was not raised a Christian, I was raised in a very troubled childhood, (you can view my testimony http://univ-lightworkers.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=a65746318b1ee351b9db53901964d41c&topic=2288.0. - here . I didnít just develop this mind set, or method of thinking. I experienced it, I saw it first hand, I know what Iím talking about not because I read about it, not because Iíve heard about it, but because Iíve seen it and have experienced it, what I say is from experience, unlike a lot of the other Christians who only state their dislike out of disagreement and ignorance.

     Okay, now that Iíve established my foundation and my position, I can openly talk to you about this. I have spent the last few years researching Christianity, researching WHY God wants to be with us, why this, and why that, and Iíve come up with a lot of great answers. I had written it into a large compact article explaining the basics of Christianity and wrote it specifically for people who are in your position who havenít really heard the whyís and why notís. There are several people out there who claim to be Christians but have absolutely NO IDEA what being a Christian is about. I somehow accidentally deleted the article itself (though I printed out several copies of it and still have them), but had remembered to write out an outline for the article. So, if you like, you can read the outline until I finish rewriting the full document.

You can view the outline http://www.psineticforums.phpbbweb.com/psineticforums-ftopic71.html - here .

Something I would like to leave you with is that Christianity has a lot more science to it than you think; it has more science to it than Evolution itself. Many people are simply closed minded and refuse to shut their mouths long enough to hear it. Another thing is that you can listen to a pastor all day long, you can listen to your friends, and you can listen to me, and still never understand what Christianity is all about. You canít simply listen to someone elseís view of what a Bible verse or chapter is meaning and why without reading it for yourself. A lot of people are not reading their Bibleís because itís hard for them to understand the Ďthouí, Ďthyí, and other weird words, but thatís no excuse. There are several versions of the Bible that do not take away from the meaning of the scripture that donít use the thou, thy, and weird words like that that can help you a lot. I myself got a Bible specifically made to study the Bible (a Study BibleÖget thatÖlol).

If youíre ever going to hope to understand Christianity then you have to read it for yourself, because anyone can take a verse and take it out of context and make it mean anything they want, but that doesnít mean itís true. You need to be able to read the Bible and know what it is talking about and why itís talking about it. You have to actually think when you read the Bible, not just let someone else tell you what their opinions of what it means. By reading it for yourself you can experience a lot of things that you would never have experienced before and you will better understand what is being said. The opinion of a sinful human being should not overcome the opinion of your own. We are all sinful beings, and none of us can fully understand what the Bible is saying, even though we may think we do, so by passing down information about what the Bible says instead of reading it for yourself, youíre going to mess it up somewhere along the way.

Iíll be glad to help you understand something if youíre having any trouble, but be assured, I will answer straightly. I will not pull your strings, and I will flood you with research, as I flood myself to make sure I always have the right answer. I will listen intently and will answer your questions fully and if I donít understand what youíre saying I will ask. I hope that you will do the same for me.

CD27/Eric Wright


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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: donp
Date Posted: February/12/2007 at 8:43am
just an interjection here.
isn't trying to get a closed minded person to become an open minded person the same thing? either way, your trying to force someone to see your views or perspectives on a subject. in a way, every human being is closed minded because they have their own thoughts, ideas, views, and or perspectives about any given subject. while you may be open minded, thinking that someone elses ideas are wrong is just as closed minded as you say that person is. but....... if you were to say that you see their point of view and agree that they may be right, then you are truely open minded. being open minded means that you are able to accept other reasons other than the ones you formulate yourself.

just my 2 cents.

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Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/12/2007 at 12:21pm
And your very much right. In my years of living both lives (the dedicated Christianity and the dedicated ways of Chaos) I'm more or less leaned toward the chaotic side. I am a chaos mage. Because of this I only live this life under one set of rules (nothing is true, but everything is permitted). I believe this path to be the right one for me because I simply hate people constantly trying to force one ideal into your head versus another. Not saying you were doing anything of the sort. It's just in my past experiences with people like this (present ones even) I'd rather remain the way I am. The way I am now, I am able to learn and do many different things that other religions may see unfitting. But with Chaos Magick, I control my own reality. It gives me a sense of freedom. Of course I have enough self control not to do anything unsound, but even if I did, I would be religiously free to do so. While I am a man who needs to spread his wings, I can see how some people need balance in their lives to maintain.

Well, I'll keep it short for today. I hope to hear your response soon.

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/13/2007 at 8:42am
Donp,

I have had this same thing said before to me about open-mindedness, but i believe that you are looking at the wrong definition of being open minded. Here is the definition:

Originally posted by Dictionary.com Dictionary.com wrote:

having or showing a mind receptive to new ideas or arguments.


Being open minded has absolutely nothing to do with whether i believe someone is wrong or right, and it has nothing to do with me making/forcing (which is not what i said at all) someone to believe what i'm saying or what i believe. Being open minded means that you are able to listen intently to someone else's viewpoint without being prejudice about it. I've talked to several dozen people who are closed minded, and all of them have the same attribute: they are right and nothing you say can change that...not that they actualy LET you say what you wanted to say. Most people who are closed minded don't even let you finish your conversation, and refuse to listen to you completely.

If someone listened to what i had to say, didn't try to make it where i couldn't take (or perhaps the oldest trick in the book...asking alot of questions and not permitting and answer), and still didn't agree with me, i wouldn't have a problem with it, and i would listen intently on what they had to say. But if they are closed minded, then there isn't a point in the conversation...because there is not conversation, it's all them.

Prophet, I understand your view, and i too used to think EXACTLY the same way. But two plus two ALWAYS equals four. It doesn't matter how you get to it, it's going to equal four. you can't take two plus two and let it equal five, or six. That's TRUTH. There are alot of oppinions out there, but what we often have a problem understanding is WHICH ONE IS TRUE?

I would listen to you, because you are open minded and willing to listen as well as speak, and i respect that. Chaos means there is no order, and to an extent, it's okay, but even at your own admission,

Originally posted by Prophet Prophet wrote:

Of course I have enough self control not to do anything unsound, but even if I did, I would be religiously free to do so


you don't think in Chaos. As i said before, the slight change in the truth makes it UNTRUE (2+2 cannot equal 3,5,or 6, but truthfully always equals 4). There is a truth out there, there must be, and nothing is chaotic but our oppinions of what truth is. So the real question you are dealing with is, 'what is truth and why is it truth?'

I don't think any human will realy ever understand absolute truth, but to an extent, we all know some of it. As you said, you have limits. There is no inbetween, something is either wholly good or wholly bad, and we as humans have really tried hard to make a grey area, saying truth for you isn't neccissarily truth for me.

But it is, truth is always the same, for something to be true it must be unchanging, it must always remain the same, it must stand up against time and space, it must stand up against cultures.

Another thing is that Christianity is NOT a religion. it is everything BUT a religion. it's a relationship with our God, it's experience, it's growth. Catholics, at least the majority of them, not all, are NOT Christian, for alot of the things they do are not permitted by the Bible, which we hold as the truth and has stood as the truth for 2,000 years. Christianity has NEVER made a mistake. The people who claim to be Christians, imperfect humans, do make mistakes, but so far, Christianity has not, and it's been studied more than any science in the world and all throughout history. The Bible has been taken completely apart and looked at closely, and no fault has been found. Historians even use the Bible as a dating reference device for artifacts and treasures.

Many people have tried to prove it wrong, and have all failed, not one has come up triuphic. As for wicca and witchcraft, i'm not going to dis anything here, and i won't say that anyone is a bad person or an evil person for doing it, but i will share my experience if one will listen. I've seen with my own eyes why i believe that wicca and witchcraft (as well as other magical religions) are wrong and way off course, but that's for a different time and place.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: donp
Date Posted: February/13/2007 at 8:51am
your dictionary definition is exactly what i said, just in different text.

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Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/13/2007 at 5:07pm
Well, I do have something to say that might just confuse the subject matter. It's my own personal quote based on personal experience with the truth along with something I just added on:

There is no such thing as the truth. There is only a man/woman of well renown's belief that has been accepted into an individual's reality. Truth is something that can be proven all of the time. But nothing in this world or the next can be proven all of the time. Therefore there can only be truth when something can be proved all of the time no matter the variables.

My quote is a bit smaller than that, but as I've said before I added a bit on due to personal experiences that allow me to expand the original thought.

It is my belief that each individual shapes their own reality to suit themselves. It is when we have a wide range of beliefs and things that we believe is the truth that the lines between your reality and the reality of the world becomes one.

As I've said. Food for thought or just non-sense. I haven't really shown it to people to say whether I'm right or wrong. Well, I'm gonna go to bed now.

TTYL

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/14/2007 at 7:14am
Okay, makes sense. I also have my own view of this world and science and the way things work. First we have the laws of physics, a basic constant for science. However, there is the paranormal, which seems to break the laws of physics. But there is no 'breaking' the laws of physics. We can only get around them. Here's a quote from a good friend of mine:

Originally posted by ďErikDurwoodIIĒ ďErikDurwoodIIĒ wrote:

You donít ďbreakĒ the laws of physics. You simply operate in an environment where said laws do not apply fully or at all.


As my theory proclaims and i have stated several times and base my entire method of science from...the laws of physics are not absolute nor permanent. There is a way around them. ANYTHING can be done and is highly possible. So what does this have to say about truth?

If the laws of physics can be adverted without consequences known, then wouldn't truth in itself be the same way? I mean, you could steal something, but not really steal it, you could kill someone and not really kill them, you could do all kinds of things that would not be a limit by the laws of physics.

How would this change truth? It wouldn't. You're looking at this in an entirely different way than i am. You're looking at this with only a physical attribute (as in, what i do, what i beleive, is mine, and no matter what you believe, it can't be truth for me, because what i believe is truth for me and i made it. It stands up against the tests, it does, but it may not be your truth, however it is mine.)

This means that your consequences for your actions are nullified, or at least you have nullified them. Tell me, do you believe that we can walk through walls? Can we? I believe we can. I want you to test it, go try and walk through a wall for me. Most likely you'll find that you can't, you'll just hit the wall and get a headache.

The only way we can walk through walls is if we somehow CHANGE the way in which the laws work. As my theory suggests, the laws of physics and this universe are not absolute nor permanent, but they are constants. If you change them, they will remain the same even when you are done. If i change the law of gravity, the constant, then i can make something heavier or lighter in any way I WANT, and nothing anyone else believes can change it.

That's how you are looking at this. That you can change it and you can make it the way you want. Since we are looking at this in a paranormal sense, this is possible. But you have to remember, the law is STILL a constant, even when changed by you, it is the same for all who do not directly try to change it.

So, in a sense, does this mean we can change what truth is for us? Absolutely, but it's still a constant. That is an absolute truth, a constant, by changing the truth...does it make it truth anymore? No, it is now false. here is a quote i found on a site:

Originally posted by http://www.absolutetruth.net/truth/ http://www.absolutetruth.net/truth/ wrote:

PROOF THAT ABSOLUTES MUST EXIST

The denial of absolute truth has more than a few serious logical problems. If we will "follow the train of thought to the station" we will find that it "derails."





Problem #1 -- Self-Contradiction. Those who would insist that there are NO absolutes are believing in an absolute. They are absolutely sure that there is nothing that is absolute. Such a philosophy is self-defeating and self-contradictory. Their statement of belief is, in itself, evidence against their belief!





Problem #2 -- Limited Knowledge. A human being, with a limited and finite mind, cannot make absolute negative statements. You can't say: "There are no dogs in Alaska" unless you have absolute knowledge of Alaska...every home, cave, etc. You would be forced to say: "With the knowledge I have now and the small evidence I have observed, I don't think there are any dogs in Alaska." (On the flip side, making an absolute positive statement is possible, because if we see dogs in Alaska, we could make the absolute statement "There are dogs in Alaska.") Likewise, a finite human.


Then, what is truth for me and what is truth for you? What must truth be to be true?

IT MUST BE CONSISTENT, ABSOLUTE, CORRECT, AND TIMELESS. That's truth, if your truth works for you and doesn't for another, then it's not truth, it's an oppinion.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/14/2007 at 11:35am
But you see, my truth isn't truth because it can't be proven to work all of the time. It is merely my belief. If you choose to believe my theory then it becomes truth for you. When we were kids we believed Santa Claus to be real and it was truth for us. Of course after finding out he wasn't real a new truth was created. But if we found out a truth different from than that, we have another truth.

The average human subconsciously spends his/her life to try to find the truth. Most seek it though religion (mass belief therefore creating a truth to those people who believe in it) while others go and hit the books. But I ask you, is science not a religion within itself. Even though you can prove to me the existence of atoms and god, I can also prove to you the existence of the god and goddess. Both through the same logic. Then I ask you, where would you be?

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/15/2007 at 6:22am
Okay, so, if i believe in santa clause, and you KNOW he is not real, and he REALLY ISN'T REAL, then you would still say that my belief in santa clause would constitute truth?...i have to disagree completely, really. I'm not trying to be closed minded, and i'm not stating what i believe compared to what you believe, at the moment, it is solely about how to identify truth.

You say that if i believe it then it is truth for me. Again, let me state the characteristics of truth:

Originally posted by site site wrote:

Characteristics of Truth.

Truth is sometimes difficult. That is why total commitment to It is necessary. It takes Courage to Know, Believe, Love and Practice Truth.

Truth is Consistent. It is the same wherever one goes. Truth is the same whether one is in Space or on the Earth.

Truth Endures. It stands the test of time. Truth is the same as it was 10,000 years ago. It will still be the same 10,000 years from now. The Lie cannot stand the test of time.

Truth is based on Evidence and Reason. Truth is not just some mystical, mysterious, nebulous idea.

Truth does not contradict Itself. One does not find Truth in one place and then in another place find It contradicting Itself.

Truth is Uncompromising. This is the difficult part. One cannot compromise the Truth and It still be the Truth. Truth is always right and correct.


You can't just say that becuse of your own understanding and knowledge that something is true or not...because either it is true or it is false. JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN IT IS TRUE. i can believe all i want that i can walk through walls, really really believe it, and try it and run smack into it and get one heck of a headache...you know why? because even though i believed whole-heartedly that what i believed was true, it was completely and utterly false.

Truth doesn't care what you believe, and it doesn't care how you believe it, truth is truth, and it's truth becasue it is absolutely consistent and withstands contradictions and time and twisted beliefs (not saying your beliefs are twisted). My point: Why do you believe that what you believe is true? Can you prove it's true? How? Why? SHOW ME. I would like very much to see how your view of chaos works, for you to show me how it is true and that your belief makes it true.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/15/2007 at 2:46pm
Once again my friend. You right now are displaying a belief. I do see that going into this further though would constitute in us both being utterly confused and bewildered so I'll just leave it at this.

If we forge our own futures, than can't we also forge our own reality? Or are they both the same exact thing? If truth is truth, then why is there psionics and magick that can be used to receive results yet to become truth as results? Why are we all not gray and act, look, feel, and straight around be the same? And why can some people decide not to live with the rules of this world and try to crack them down and actually succeed?

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/16/2007 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Prophet Prophet wrote:

Once again my friend. You right now are displaying a belief. I do see that going into this further though would constitute in us both being utterly confused and bewildered so I'll just leave it at this.


I don't see how, it seems to me that you are looking at something a bit different than i. I would like to continue the conversations if it is okay with you.

Originally posted by Prophet Prophet wrote:

If we forge our own futures, than can't we also forge our own reality?


No. Reality is REAL, belief is an oppinion of what is real. We can't create a reality, and i'm looking at this in a physical perspective as well as a philosophical perspective. just because i believe i can walk through walls doesn't mean i can, and my belief therefore does not constitute a change in reality. Reality is not individual, it is unified among the group...all of us have the same reality. Though we may look at it in a different way, the reality in itself is still the same.

Originally posted by Prophet Prophet wrote:

Or are they both the same exact thing? If truth is truth, then why is there psionics and magick that can be used to receive results yet to become truth as results? Why are we all not gray and act, look, feel, and straight around be the same? And why can some people decide not to live with the rules of this world and try to crack them down and actually succeed?


if that's the case,then also why do good things happen to bad people and bad things to good people? my answer to this: Events and reality are synonomous. Just because i'm a bad person doesn't mean that something good can't happen to me. As well as just because i believe that i can do something doesn't mean that it is true. At the moment i'm not trying to point out what i think is absolute truth, what i think is perfect and such, but i just want to understand what your view of truth is and ask you if it is absolute truth.

is your truth the same as my truth? does it work for me as it would work for you? if not then it is not truth, it is an oppinion, a belief in other words. can truth and belief also be the same? yes, they can, but only if both the belief and truth are absolute truths...which means that, for example, if i believe in something and it happens to be absolutely true (absolute truth), then it is truth and it is absolute truth, both the truth and the belief. But if my beliefe does not agree with absolute truth, then it is not truth, it is a belief, and to more correctly define it: it is a lie.

About psionics for a moment. (i won't deal with magic as you already know my standpoint on that). As i stated earlier, there is an absolute truth, it transcends time, space, reality, philosophy, and your own personal belief. (if i kill someone and you think it's bad but i think it's okay and not wrong, that would be truth for me...but the event is negative, not positive. Anything negative is not truth. Truth isn't everything and anything we want it to be. Because if it is negative then the fact that it's a good thing is WRONG. How can a negative thing be good? In order for something to be true it must NOT be contradictory...and that is contradictory) Anyways, back on the topic here, Truth is absolute, no matter what. It is absolute in everything and everyone, and just because someone has a different oppinion doesn't mean that that truth has been cast away, it means that this person is wrong, which is how there can be both good and bad people, bad and good events, as your questions portrayed, that there are two sides, thus multiple oppinions and they all seem to work...my question is: work for what? Just becaus a guy can kill someone and get away with it doesn't mean that they have truth and it 'worked', and this is for another discussion which i wish to continue with later in the conversation.

As for the psionics, if truth is absolute in everything, every time, and every place, then truth is a constant. I spoke of that earlier, where the laws of physics are constants. Now, you'll probably see in my theory that i say the laws of physics are neither permanent nor absolute, and i'll get back to that, but for now, they are constants. If i were to use psionics to break the laws of physics, then i am not 'breaking' them, simply reverting around them, finding a place where they do not fully apply. if this is the case, then the constant is still constant, and just because you can change it for yourself doesn't mean that the constant has changed, only your reliance on it. Just as in philosophy, if you change your view/oppinion of something and model your life about it, you are opperating in a self-manifested state of non-reliance, meaning that you are operating in a place where they do not fully apply to you, but they don't just not fully apply to you because they have failed, but they do this because YOU have changed their meaning/priority/importance to you as a personal, not to the whole as a group.

The constant is still there, but you have denied it for yourself. Now, i'm not saying you have done this, i'm just saying this in this event that if it may happen. In psionics you can bend, manipulate, and find ways around the laws of physics, but the laws are still the same, they still are governing our universe. Just because you have made it where able to bend around it and not accept its consequences does not mean that you are immune to it. Truth exists in YOU, moreso than it does in the world around you. you know what truth is, and you can choose to follow it or to deny it. Just because you deny it does not mean that you have passed by it completely and govern your own truth, you are still accountable for that truth.

Now, if you understand that, then we can continue the conversation, if you do not, then i can try to rewrite it in another way to make it more understandable. I would really like to understand your view of truth and its applications, but i want to get a standard ground here for the both of us for easy communication (in other words, agreement).

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/16/2007 at 10:45am
Well, I do live under a different set of rules then everyone else. As you have said before, this is because of me not agreeing with the rules that humanity has set for itself.

In my opinion, we are given these rules at early childhood in an attmept to internalize these rules that we have made for ourselves. Then once these rules are implanted into our memories they become true to us. Does that make any sense at all?

According to the logic of this world, then we wouldn't be able to have and use magick in the astral, nor would we really be able to ascend to the astral realm. In that case, we wouldn't be able to do anything different in the astral realm then we would in this world.

Well, as I've said before, it is my general opinion that this world is centered around belief. There is no absolute truth, only things that we have internally accepted as fact in our lives.

I do rebuke the rules set by this world. I can't walk through walls because I internalized the rules of this world at an early age. I do know of someone who managed to do it quite a couple of times actually. So do believe that once I internalize the fact that I can alter my own reality, I can indeed transcend mass.


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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.


Posted By: cd27
Date Posted: February/20/2007 at 3:46am
You seem to be missing the point. Don't get me wrong, i understand what you're saying completely, i'm just trying to help you understand what i'm saying as well, so that we'll be on the same page. I'm not talking about our "world's" laws and oppinions and rules, no, i'm talking about the universe's. Just because mommy says something is wrong doesn't mean that it's wrong, per se. Now, if you did it, even though mommy said it was wrong, then you are being in the wrong, simply because you disobeyed her,thus disrespected her and undermined her authority, so when she does say something that is correct that you would consider not wrong, then you'll be in the wrong completely.

but my point is more over the fact that there are absolute truths here, there is an absolute fact. If you are not of this world then what are you doing here? why do you have a physical body? Why do you exist? If you do not belong here then why are you here? Apparently you DO belong here, because you were raised in this Earth, you were born here, you have lived here ever since. you were not born an Angel or higher ascended being, rather a human being, bound by the physical laws. As i have said before, just because you break a physical law, it does not mean that you have actually broken it, rather you have simply moved around it and bounced its consequences.

Consequences are not always immediate, and sometimes take several days, even years or lifetimes to have effect. If there is a set order to this universe, then there must be laws, and there is a set order, it's seen in the structure of atoms, in the basic laws of physics, in our language, in everything we are and do.

There are laws, that's my point. What we are seeing here isn't that you don't believe in laws at all, rather you don't believe in certain laws, you feel pressured to follow someone else's beleifs (be assured, pressured and forced are two very different words and meanings).

if my parents told me something was wrong based upon their belief in, let's say, the muslim religion, and you are Budhist (spl?), they would be wrong, wouldn't they? and you would be right? or would you be wrong, and they would be right?

Which one? are either of them right? What about Christianity? is it right? what about atheism, is it right? how about the laws of physics, are they right? WHICH ONE IS RIGHT!!!

That's the question we are seeing here. There must be laws, they have to exist, because our universe is clearly in a state of structure, that cannor be avoided. Structure means rules, rules mean laws, and laws together mean a STANDARD to abide.

If that's so, then how can we break these laws and standards? Why is it that the laws of physics cannot be broken, but our moral values can? Well, first, the laws of physics can be broken, as i showed earlier, that when they are broken, their consequences are simply diverted from; the same thing happens with moral values. There is a standard moral value...but our problems here is deciding which one it is. But, right now we won't get into which one it is, simply that there is one. If there is one, and we break it, even though we don't know it, are we doing wrong or right? Well, it depends on if you have ever been introduced to it or not. if you know it is wrong, but don't accept it, then it's still wrong.

This is all assuming that you're relying on that one and only standard or not. If you're relying on a standard that is incorrect and you break the laws it requires, then you have not done wrong, but if you are relying on the standards that ARE correct, then you have done wrong.

by saying that it is chaotic completely contradicts the fabric of our universe, our very existence. There must be a standard, so which one is it? By saying that there is no truth, then you are not only contradicting your very existence, you are running from it.

CD

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If I call you dumb...refer to my avatar ^


Posted By: Prophet
Date Posted: February/20/2007 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by cd27 cd27 wrote:

Now, if you did it, even though mommy said it was wrong, then you are being in the wrong, simply because you disobeyed her,thus disrespected her and undermined her authority, so when she does say something that is correct that you would consider not wrong, then you'll be in the wrong completely.


This is a biased opinion on your part due to your religion and upbringing. Someone brought up thinking it's ok to disrespect your parents wouldn't think they're in the wrong. Sometimes it is necessary to disrespect them in order to get a important point across. Everyone needs to push a little bit harder sometimes.


Originally posted by cd27 cd27 wrote:

If you are not of this world then what are you doing here? why do you have a physical body? Why do you exist? If you do not belong here then why are you here?"


Honestly speaking, I could care less to be here or not. I despise the way this world is. I guess the gods have greater plans for me here if I have not found out what they are yet than I will soon enough.

This physical body sucks, but it is something I was born with. You don't necessarily have to be born with a physical body, but any more talk on this and you'll be dialing that 800 number to get me a custom made jacket.

I don't belong here, but I am here to gain some kind of experience. As you see, I live by a completely different set of rules than you do. Judging by my thoughts and explanations of those thoughts you should have guessed that.

If you wish to know the truth, in my past life I wasn't born and raised on Earth. And I was a hybrid of sorts. I commited suicide in my past life though. To find someone dear to me who had died. My travels through the ether brought me here.

I'm bound by physical laws because these laws have been determined truth by the people of this world. There are ways to actually break it. Not in everyone's instance, but in my own instance.

I've seen the whole time where you come from cd, because I have lived in this world and been taught physics and the sort. The only altercation we have here is whether or not I wish to believe it. Which I don't. There is a process of unlearning that I must do in order to erase its effect from my person. But seeing as I have not finished school, I must wait to unlearn it.

The way I see it, there is no right or wrong, only popular belief. The way you see it is similar to my way but you believe in the scientific absolute truths because they hold fruit in your life, you have such a passion for science and it's laws and ways, and also because your theory is heavily based on science.

Just like anything else though, science is a belief, a way of thinking. We all choose to apply it to our lives because it makes life easier for us. It solves the questions that we sat and thought about as we were going to bed at night in youth. It gives us a good foundation to live by.

I honestly am a hard learner. I like to try things the hard way first, then go to the easy way. Unless I'm feeling particularly lazy. So forgive me if I want to try things my way first before trying yours.

I say this a lot in my mind while they constantly try to help me when I insist on doing things my way. "Just let me fall." Let me keep thinking things the way I want to until I'm ready to learn it another way.

So I say to you, I understand what your saying because I've been there for the most part. Right now I just want to try things a different way. And if I fall, I'll get back up and try another way untill I find a way that suits me and makes me comfortable with myself. That's all that really matters to me.

I could go to school looking the biggest of messes, but as long as I feel good about myself and I'm confident with the way I am I'll tell those other people to go screw themselves. Half the time they only want to water me off anyway.

Well, I'm done talking for today. I'll see you sometime.

Latez

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http://xs.to">

Do not judge me for past aggressions. I am a man of many faces, but this one is my last.



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